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2021-06-03-chat.txt
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2021-06-03-chat.txt
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00:27:02 Frode Hegland: yes
00:27:05 Norman Chella: 👍
00:27:52 Brian James Rubinton - Kanopi.io: I hope these tools don't over-optimize for task/project management and team documentation.
00:29:26 Jess Martin: @Brian: precisely why I find it "regrettable". My dream is that we see a cornucopia of tools, toys, explorations, and such springing up and cross-pollenating over the next few years. Premature widespread commercial adoption seems problematic to me.
00:30:09 Brian James Rubinton - Kanopi.io: @Jess Problematic but I'd also love some more commercial adoption! :) Tough to avoid $$$
00:30:52 Jess Martin: hahaha true good point! figuring out how to fund the explorations w/o widespread commercial adoption: another pressing problem ;)
00:30:53 Brian James Rubinton - Kanopi.io: Maybe it's in part necessary for other products to go first - a first wave to soak up those use-cases
00:31:37 Jess Martin: Notion, Coda, Airtable seem to be serving as that "early absorption" pretty well (though I think we have leagues to go beyond those tools)
00:31:47 Brian James Rubinton - Kanopi.io: Exactly
00:32:43 Marc-Antoine Parent: IPFS, Gun, Hypercore and Holochain are kinda competing in that (broad) domain
00:33:18 Jess Martin: @map thanks for those references! what do you call that "domain", broadly?
00:33:26 Marc-Antoine Parent: distributed web
00:35:14 Norman Chella: If there was a TFT x Email function with OCR, that behavior would be so cool
00:35:58 Jess Martin: @norman I think this one is pretty awesome: https://screenotate.com/
00:36:48 A B: Hi everyone! Are there graph database implementations with IPFS?
00:36:58 Boris Mann: IPFS has a graph structure underneath
00:37:31 Norman Chella: @Jess oh wow thanks for this! I've always done OCR through Google Keep, and tons of screenshots and manually transcribing them, this actually looks pretty good
00:37:33 Marc-Antoine Parent: Yes... Look up IPLD for the graph structure over (not under) IPFS. But I still would not call it a graph database (not indexed)
00:38:07 Jess Martin: @norman - also check out the other work the author (Omar Rizwan) has done. He's _very_ interesting!
00:38:38 Norman Chella: I follow Omar! Didn't realize it was his creation 😄
00:41:28 Jess Martin: "relation" sounds like systems thinking. The system is not merely the sum of its parts but the relation between the nodes.
00:42:15 Norman Chella: colour idea = rather the articulation of the message, but the most atomic form of the meaning behind the message?
00:42:55 Brian James Rubinton - Kanopi.io: How does this definition of relation differ from emergent phenomenon or viewing things at different levels of scale? (people as people vs bags of organs vs clumps of atoms)
00:44:13 Norman Chella: ^Maybe it's what can be observed vs. cannot: where something must be conceptualized in our heads from the sum of all the observations within a moment (eg. upon looking at a painting), rather than what can possibly be observed (eg. atoms can be measured/viewed)
00:45:10 Brian James Rubinton - Kanopi.io: Does that limit the concept to the relative power of one's evolved tools for perception?
00:46:17 Norman Chella: Don't think so, that may be when imagination comes into play: integration of previous observations, thoughts etc. I think with the sum of my entire life to conceptualize this entity rather than leave it at surface-level observation. Tools for perception become an extension of my processing ability
00:46:36 Norman Chella: Just as a poet does in terms of words - articulating expressions through relation, we become provoked by their ability to relate anything to everything
00:47:21 Frode Hegland: Wonderful to be here to listen to this and see the comments. Feels like home :-)
00:47:34 Jack Park: :)
00:47:38 Jess Martin: @frode: agreed. goosebumps.
00:47:46 Frode Hegland: :-)
00:47:54 Marc-Antoine Parent: I think it's beyond perception, though the notion of Gestalt is rooted in perception. It's any systemic pattern, whether perceived or not
00:48:33 Marc-Antoine Parent: Multiple interpretations of any symbol, absolutely
00:49:11 Blaine Cook: Frode, yes, agreed - I love listening to Iian, and I’m sitting here just saying “yes” in varying intonations at my screen. 😄
00:49:28 Norman Chella: Wow. Tyranny, that's strong framing
00:49:47 Marc-Antoine Parent: I support that framing.
00:49:50 Blaine Cook: Norman: Yes, and I couldn’t agree more.
00:49:57 Norman Chella: Yeah, it's beautiful
00:50:20 Peter Wasilko: Open Hypermedia is the way to go.
00:50:27 Norman Chella: Introduces that hierarchical element to markup - as soon as I see yours I must humble myself to your understanding to interpret your markup
00:51:21 Wendy Elford: Markup is imposes meaning?
00:52:32 A B: Good question
00:52:42 A B: How?
00:52:44 Blaine Cook: Wendy: Yes! I love that framing. Expressing knowledge in [inline] Markup is like trying to express poetry or art with the simple grammar of a programming language.
00:53:13 Marc-Antoine Parent: The question is: can you layer other interpretations (meanings) on markup text? Not easily.
00:53:33 Marc-Antoine Parent: The point is for anybody being able to propose an interpretive layer.
00:53:47 Wendy Elford: the analogue of this is ‘clean language’ a la David Grove
00:53:52 Peter Wasilko: To my mind knowledge = parsable text
00:54:16 Marc-Antoine Parent: text almost always has >1 parsing
00:54:49 Jess Martin: "desktop state as a UNIT OF WORK" is such a great example of the relation principle in action. the different "windows" opened up, etc, is work in itself.
00:54:50 Brian James Rubinton - Kanopi.io: isn't knowledge embedded in text, with no single embedding?
00:54:53 Boris Mann: I like that, I need to collaborate with future self / past self
00:55:26 Peter Wasilko: That is why I tend to use Parsing Expression Grammars in all my code, so I’ll only get one canonical parse.
00:55:27 Jack Park: A lot of text is deliberately ambiguous. Seems you need to be able to make multiple parses.
00:55:33 Wendy Elford: At the level of metaphor there are some adjacencies but always(?) devolves to n=1 for deeper meaning
00:56:05 Marc-Antoine Parent: @Peter one parse is a choice among possible parses. But I meant your grammatical/semantic parsing in wetware
00:56:14 Blaine Cook: yes yes yes yes re: multi-user
00:56:31 Marc-Antoine Parent: @Brian absolutely, the "no single embedding" is key
00:56:54 Boris Mann: I just found a windowing / layering plugin for TiddlyWiki https://thesherwood.github.io/Mentat/#%24%3A%2Fplugins%2Fadmls%2Fengine:%5B%5B%24%3A%2FWindow%201%5D%5D%20%5B%5B%24%3A%2FWindow%203%5D%5D%20%24%3A%2FSidebar%20%24%3A%2FTopbar%20%24%3A%2FWindowbar
00:57:20 Peter Wasilko: @Marc, ah, I see what you mean now.
00:57:30 Jess Martin: @boris woah, that's wild.
00:57:40 Blaine Cook: If I was a linguist, I’d say something about “parsing language” being the rules for understanding, and the experience of conversation being what we should be attempting to enable.
00:57:50 Wendy Elford: Meaning is context sensitive - time and environment, not just actor.
00:58:11 Norman Chella: @Wendy +1
00:58:32 Boris Mann: @blaine there is even something there about formal conversation vs informal
00:58:40 Boris Mann: I always think of the different forms of address in German
00:58:58 Jess Martin: @blaine: the augmented conversation :) that "experience of conversation" is often about sharing knowledge between two sets of wetware (to Wendy's point, sharing your context).
00:59:08 Peter Wasilko: If I want to get multiple interpretations I’d use a Combinatory Categorial Grammar
01:00:51 Peter Wasilko: Mark Steedman’s work is really fascinating there. https://www.inf.ed.ac.uk/teaching/courses/nlg/readings/ccgintro.pdf
01:00:58 Wendy Elford: Finely grained data; allows deeper levels of integration. Resolution is never achieved
01:02:36 Wendy Elford: equivalent is ignorance based learning - properties - knowing fallibly
01:02:37 Marc-Antoine Parent: Wendy that makes sense to me. Resolution is an asymptotic goal.
01:03:12 Gyuri Lajos: Graph Database over IPFS, @TrailMarks is building one called MindGraph
01:05:50 Wendy Elford: Fav framework here for me is taxonomy of ignorance Michael Smithson
01:06:33 Peter Wasilko: Authority Control can be a real nightmare.
01:08:09 Gordon: Hildegard von Bingen! https://youtu.be/Ei88J4lERbk
01:08:31 Marc-Antoine Parent: Beautiful work!
01:08:33 Jess Martin: 👏
01:08:34 Norman Chella: Practical illustration = music to my ears
01:08:40 Gordon: 👏
01:08:41 Frode Hegland: And beautiful presentation!
01:08:49 Norman Chella: 👏
01:09:01 Blaine Cook: 👏
01:09:19 Marc-Antoine Parent: 👏👏👏
01:09:23 Norman Chella: Best answer
01:10:02 Jess Martin: feels like we are stepping into the matrix... :)
01:10:44 Norman Chella: WHAT
01:10:54 Norman Chella: The YT video becomes the 'wallpaper'??
01:11:13 A B: Hi Lian! The relations between nodes are "standoff" too? They exist as nodes too? How that's possible?
01:12:55 Norman Chella: The auto-wrap is so beautiful
01:13:29 A B: Fantastic
01:13:38 Jess Martin: woah overlapping links
01:13:47 A B: Standoff power
01:13:55 Boris Mann: Yeah, that’s the standoff / external markup — infinite overlaps
01:14:20 Norman Chella: Oh wow
01:14:21 Jess Martin: definitely seems like it would get crazy powerful for transclusions - would love to see examples
01:14:35 Norman Chella: shortcut to switch between page/aliasing function on the same open bracket?
01:16:20 Blaine Cook: So the trick then is to have dual link / offsets. I haven’t figured the right way to encode this, but having text offsets and timecode offsets into the video would create an automatic captioning tool (or whatever we can imagine)
01:16:59 Marc-Antoine Parent: an early version of Pundit had time _and_ spatial regions
01:17:10 Norman Chella: Maybe an outliner format/'text file' with every video/audio file for timestamps and threading function?
01:19:17 Marc-Antoine Parent: Intent to open-source it?
01:19:23 Michael Gartner: https://www.patreon.com/codexeditor
01:20:11 Gyuri Lajos: Its turtles all the way up
01:20:39 Wendy Elford: Standoffs - like triples? Meta data about metadata.
01:21:09 john knowles: Anyone have experience using Interval Trees to express standoff ranges?
01:21:18 Michael Gartner: 😊
01:22:06 Marc-Antoine Parent: @John played a bit, not extensively
01:22:43 Boris Mann: https://github.com/argimenes/standoff-properties-editor
01:23:13 Blaine Cook: @john knowles: there’s a *ton* of optimization work to be done in this space. All of the implementations I know of are pretty naive, but ropes/interval trees or some combination probably feature in the implementation long-term
01:23:24 Marc-Antoine Parent: there's indeed a long conversation to have there :-)
01:23:32 Frode Hegland: This will be my answer to the open source question later :-)
01:23:51 Norman Chella: Setting the stage hahaha
01:24:21 Marc-Antoine Parent: I think actually, open format is even more important here. Interoperability is key.
01:24:23 Frode Hegland: Yes, exactly Iian :-)
01:24:31 Norman Chella: hahahahhahahaha
01:24:32 Michael Gartner: BDFL!
01:24:33 Frode Hegland: Yes, MA
01:24:51 Blaine Cook: 👏👏👏👏👏
01:24:51 Marc-Antoine Parent: Amazing work, thank you!
01:24:51 Jeff Griffiths: Super cool!
01:24:53 Norman Chella: 👏
01:26:39 Iian Neill: Definitely want the format to be as open as possible
01:27:03 Marc-Antoine Parent: Thank you. Would love to discuss that in depth.
01:27:37 Iian Neill: Please DM me at any time on Twitter to discuss further
01:27:51 Marc-Antoine Parent: Thank you.
01:33:58 Norman Chella: Very intentional concept mapping, interesting
01:38:02 Jess Martin: I see what Frode was talking about in terms of his work being "document-centric" rather than "process-centric". Seems to be starting from the perspective of a _document to be read_ rather than _notes to be written_.
01:39:37 Jess Martin: document vs process focus is a really interesting mind-shift. whereas Iian is focused on process, but more like an OS replacement.
01:39:58 Brian James Rubinton - Kanopi.io: For the kids!
01:40:11 Jack Park: Doug Engelbart’s Mother of All Demos was about document processing.
01:40:13 Iian Neill: Love it, Frode!
01:40:17 Michael Gartner: 👏
01:40:19 Jess Martin: 🤯
01:41:23 Norman Chella: Happy birthday!
01:41:27 Iian Neill: Happy birthday!
01:42:29 Jess Martin: "at some point you have to publish" :)
01:44:10 Frode Hegland: The community: https://future-of-text.circle.so/c/welcome
01:46:59 Michael Gartner: 👏
01:47:02 Marc-Antoine Parent: Great progress!
01:47:04 Blaine Cook: 👏👏👏👏👏👏
01:47:05 Iian Neill: *applause*
01:47:16 Peter Wasilko: Bravo Frode!
01:47:23 john knowles: Thanks Frode!
01:47:35 Michael Gartner: I love that his picture looked exactly like he was still there!
01:47:37 Norman Chella: 👏
01:47:39 Frode Hegland: :-) than you all
01:47:56 Iian Neill: Great work, Frode! Would love to catch up sometime.
01:47:58 Jess Martin: it's laaate on the east coast. note-taking rate has slowed significantly 🤣
01:48:40 Marc-Antoine Parent: You're telling me... I started my zoom day 14h ago, almost non-stop (one 15 minutes break)
01:51:03 Frode Hegland: Real digital paper… yes…
01:51:10 Jess Martin: @map: wow! 😬 I can't maintain that level of focus...
01:51:54 Marc-Antoine Parent: Not sure I can either!
01:51:56 Jess Martin: hmmmm "model-aided notetaking". that's perking me up :)
01:53:10 Iian Neill: Indeed. :-)
01:53:18 Marc-Antoine Parent: no
01:53:50 Norman Chella: Oh wow, it's like building your own subway system of your thinking
01:54:09 Marc-Antoine Parent: vaguely reminded of Frontier
01:54:21 Boris Mann: So many 2 decades old memories
01:54:33 Marc-Antoine Parent: do want to see more!
01:54:34 Michael Gartner: +1 for live!
01:55:06 Marc-Antoine Parent: Yay for live link labels!
01:56:49 Jack Park: Kanopi youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht30-Qi3C6A
01:56:55 Jess Martin: would love to see an example of spatial organization... most tools focus on text and/or structured representations like graphs / trees. would love to be able to spatially organize my notes and maintain that. "window organization as unit of work"
01:58:20 Jess Martin: ah, "model" as in machine learning model?
01:59:11 Marc-Antoine Parent: Bravo!
01:59:15 Blaine Cook: 👏👏👏👏👏
01:59:17 Jack Park: https://github.com/brianru
01:59:17 Iian Neill: Awesome!
01:59:20 Frode Hegland: Great!
01:59:25 Iian Neill: Seeing lots of overlap...
01:59:45 Jack Park: Tinderbox, as I recall, allows you to make a node a type.
02:00:52 Marc-Antoine Parent: yes, Tinderbox could be said to be using a prototype-based OO model.
02:01:35 Peter Wasilko: http://www.eastgate.com/Tinderbox/
02:01:43 Marc-Antoine Parent: The thing with flexible data models is that others have to adapt to it...
02:02:11 Peter Wasilko: Tinderbox is one of the few proprietary tools I can’t live without.
02:02:19 Iian Neill: Hmmm
02:03:04 Blaine Cook: You could put those ingredient links right on the recipe method text ;-)
02:03:07 A B: That's nice
02:03:20 Marc-Antoine Parent: There's a lot to love about Tinderbox. I have not yet found something that fits my brain perfectly, but Tinderbox came close
02:03:33 Norman Chella: Overlay Kanopi window within codex OS?
02:03:36 Iian Neill: Lots of overlap with the graph meta-model between Codex and Canopi
02:04:02 Michael Gartner: 👍
02:04:03 Norman Chella: Then you have a window for Kanopi interface, but the entities translate between both like the FG/BG in the Codex presentation?
02:04:08 Marc-Antoine Parent: Interchange first!
02:04:09 Iian Neill: @Norman: would be keen to do that
02:04:16 Frode Hegland: yes
02:04:20 Frode Hegland: Interchange
02:04:28 Frode Hegland: Visual-meta…. ;-)
02:04:45 Norman Chella: A new interchange language :D
02:04:46 Jess Martin: "interchange-first software" :-P like Ink and Switch's Local-First Software mantra.
02:04:46 Iian Neill: Interchange gives the most freedom to individual developers to explore the problems deeply
02:04:50 Marc-Antoine Parent: But the point about most flexible data wins applies ;-)
02:05:04 Peter Wasilko: Tinderbox files are stored as XML, I’d love to see an atJSON converter for them.
02:05:13 Jess Martin: Muse
02:05:14 Boris Mann: My kingdom for threaded chat AND react emotions so I can applause Jess
02:05:29 Marc-Antoine Parent: Actually internal tinderbox xml uses standoff annotation!
02:05:37 Jess Martin: totally - and I love the idea of multiple maps!
02:05:42 Iian Neill: @Marc: interesting...
02:06:11 Peter Wasilko: Maybe Mark Bernstein could be invited to present here.
02:06:12 Gyuri Lajos: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/understory-digital-garden-club-tickets-151313531847?utm_source=eventbrite&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=reminder_attendees_48hour_email&utm_term=eventname&ref=eemaileventremind
02:06:18 Jess Martin: @boris: feeling that need for react emotions too 😕
02:06:22 Marc-Antoine Parent: Great idea inviting Mark
02:06:57 Iian Neill: *claps*
02:06:59 Michael Gartner: 👏👏
02:06:59 Norman Chella: 👏👏
02:07:01 Blaine Cook: 👏👏👏
02:07:02 Jess Martin: 👏👏
02:07:03 Peter Wasilko: Bravo Brian
02:07:07 Marc-Antoine Parent: Thanks a lot! and Bravo again to all!
02:07:21 Norman Chella: Thank you everybody! Really exciting stuff
02:07:21 Wendy Elford: thanks - new to the tribe
02:07:24 Frode Hegland: Lovely evening. I mean night :-)
02:07:48 Gyuri Lajos: Thank you all, great event again
02:07:48 Frode Hegland: Feel free to join us working on the future of text https://future-of-text.circle.so/c/welcome
02:08:20 Jack Park: https://topia.io/event/understory-digital-gardening-club/2022-03-04/
02:08:43 Frode Hegland: No!!!!!!!!!! Next meeting please? Maybe monthly?…
02:09:08 Peter Wasilko: +1 Frode’s sentiment!
02:09:21 Marc-Antoine Parent: indeed!
02:09:58 Frode Hegland: Juts thank you