Community Council (CC) meeting held @ 10:00 UTC in grincoin#general channel on Keybase. Meeting lasted 105 min.
Notes are truncated, and conversations sorted based on topic and not always chronological. Quotes are edited for brevity and clarity, and not always exact.
- future3ooo
- ardocrat
- yeastplume
- vegycslol
- cekickafa
- Electing new members format and procedure has been discussed, several candidates are being mentioned.
- GRINCC/finance repo has been discussed.
- CC mining farm has equipment situation has been discussed.
- Bounty for GPU solver has been discussed.
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Last meeting notes here: https://github.com/grincc/agenda/tree/main/notes
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Current meeting agenda
future3000 : 1/ * Anon has been trying to get wallet information and wallet Txs output from @hendi for the grin CC wallet. This has been discussed multiple times already and Leedan is still very mad.
ardocrat : Oh man, I am pinging @hendi for 3 months already I think he is out of internet connection :)
cekickafa : Grin wallet tx wont be problem if payment scheme is applied. Otherwise, it will be the same situation in the future.
future3000 :
There’s been lots of ongoing discussions about the CC election process. Mostly between myself, Anon and Mike. We basically weren’t in agreement with how this should be done and if all new members should be elected/ appointed / screened first/ endorsed etc. I mentioned that we should have a formal/ documented process awhile back and Anon has now drafted that up. Looking over the doc( posted below), he’s basically incorporated all CC opinions and created a middle ground.
So essentially all members are elected via votes. CC endorsement is needed, however, endorsement is assumed unless specially stated otherwise and with 4/6 members needing to back this up. CC members also need a valid reason and it can't just be because they don't like someone.
ardocrat : So election will be based on likes at forum? :)
Yeah similar format to the original formation. But with some additional criteria and voting rules.
cekickafa : Simply i think CC members make a short candidate list; maybe 5 candidates and let them community select 2 of them.
ardocrat : Do you have any candidates on mind?
cekickafa : yes i have.
ardocrat : With contribution. I see only @l33d4n for now and @cekickafa :) @vegycslol too possible.
future3000 :
cekickafa : Simply i think CC members make a short candidate list; maybe 5 candidates and let them community select 2 of them.
How can we make a good list though when we don't even know everyone that might put their name forward. If we create a public post asking for people to put their name forward, then it ends up being no different to what Anon is proposing.
cekickafa : @l33d4n, @johndavies24 , @vegycslol comes to my mind first. And @renzokuken becuz he is a dev.
👍 ardocrat, future3ooo
ardocrat : https://forum.grin.mw/u/nirg/summary and grinsingularity, not sure if he is here and wants to be politic :) I like his arts. Sure Marek too. Without questions.
cekickafa : Well, Marek hates politics, i am a bit hopeless :)
👍 ardocrat
vegycslol : being a member of CC (or OC) is not something that would make me happy, i prefer complaining from the outside =)
ardocrat:)
future3000 :
cekickafa : @l33d4n, @johndavies24 , @vegycslol comes to my mind first. And @renzokuken becuz he is a dev.
@Dburkett
🚀 ardocrat, cekickafa, ❤️ jdavies, future3000
cekickafa : it would be so good.
future3000 :
vegycslol : being a member of CC (or OC) is not something that would make me happy, i prefer complaining from the outside =)
How do you know if you're not on the inside. Never try, never know 😂 But yeah fair enough
cekickafa : i think we should pressure on @dburkett.
future3000 : Action in electing new CC needs to be taken asap. CC needed new members yesterday.
💯 cekickafa
cekickafa : Will it be ok if we reach some old trusted members. for ex. Paouky. I dont know if they are still interested in.
ardocrat : Having active members is important, not just key holders, like it happened last time :) Maybe some people will come back ❤️ future3000
future3000 : Action in electing new CC needs to be taken asap. CC needed new members yesterday.
Time is moving fast, so possible at next year we will have more candidates after 1 year of activity and contribution, especially when market will start to grow up, we can all grow up with it.
future3000 :
cekickafa : Will it be ok if we reach some old trusted members. for ex. Paouky. I dont know if they are still interested in.
If we run an election, it will be posted on all channels and in the CC newsletter, so anyone interested can put their name forward. They just need to meet basic conditions and have been active for more than a year
👍 ardocrat, cekickafa
cekickafa : Anyway, @dburkett , better we contact him.
👍 future3ooo
future3000 : Ok so next item on the Agenda:
cekickafa : 3 members reviewed. Mike pinged. He is away i think, maybe holiday. He gonna review for sure.
future3000 : GK has been hard at work and documented the missing items in the transparency reports https://github.com/grincc/finance/pull/14/files
There's also a missing Grin payment amount that was uncovered in there.
cekickafa :
Well, it might be. Since no adresses, no amounts Grin is really hard to extract without input. Let me check now.
😂 future3000
Man 😂
future3000 : there was a the 0.04550658 originally listed as a BTC-Grin conversion, when 0.04550658 was actually the BTC amount paid in relation to miner shipping charges But anyway, moving on for now
yeastplume : I need to run off off for a bit, but just a quick notice for anyone who's interested in mwmixnet to have a look on the node dev channel, I'd like to get a test network going which also means a bit of prototype wallet work that would be good for someone to pick up.
🚀 ardocrat, ❤️ cekickafa, jdavies, future3000
future3000 :
CC needs to better track payments. BTC payments are mostly fine, since it's a multi sig and a public chain. But Grin payments have been a problem
This was discussed in the community telegram group a few weeks back:
For BTC txs: Community support > CC Payment approved by alteast 4/6 in public CC chat > PR submitted > tx drafted> CC signing the tx > PR merged.
For Grin txs:
Community support > CC Payment approved by alteast 4/6 in public CC chat > PR submitted > PR merged by the CC member who made the payment. **Since the grin wallet is not multi sig it's harder to keep track of, so the person making the payment needs to be the one who seeks approval to merge.
Basically all CC Grin payments need to be documented at the time the tx is completed, which could be done via the CC repo.
cekickafa : Yes, Btc payments no problem. Grin payments just.
future3000 :
The proposed protocol is basically the same as we do now with a few new changes. One, we now have a public channel so everyone can see the discussion and who votes in favor, against, or did not vote either. Yes, we should make it a habit to directly put transaction information on Github at the same time we make the transaction. Since asking merger for this all the time creates a lot of spam, I would propose to simply allow the Grin wallet maintainers to directly merge to keep things fast and smooth (besides, all changes/commits are clearly logged an can be reviewed by anyone at any time.
Thoughts from @Anonynous
cekickafa : At the same time or better before put info at github?
future3000 :
cekickafa : At the same time or better before put info at github?
PR could be submitted first but you wouldn't merge anything until the payment has been completed.
👍 cekickafa
future3000 :
I created a post about a potential bounty for someone to build a GPU solver with better efficacy than a G1 mini( wasn't thinking a large reward, since there's already some incentive to do this) Not going to get into details here, but reply on forum if you have any input to add. We're at quite an unusual point where new gen GPUs are about to( could have already) surpassed Grin ASICs in terms of efficiency. Not sure if this has ever happened to another project before? This could be an historical event for a PoW coin
ardocrat : I think future GPUs will be faster than G1 mini anyway, so this is more about hardware progress I guess :) Question is about price of such devices. Current state of professional GPUs for AI is expensive. They have a lot of memory, what can be good for memory-bound Cuckoo Cycle
future3000 :
ardocrat : I think future GPUs will be faster than G1 mini anyway, so this is more about hardware progress I guess
Yeah for sure. but usually new gen Asics would come out and destroy them, but there's not enough incentive to product them.
It's not just high end GPUs. mid range gaming GPUs could now be in arms reach. But no-one has bothered to build a new solver to find this out
👍 ardocrat
ardocrat : Soon we will celebrate 10 year Cuckoo cycle algo , big thanks to @tromp for Grin protection :)
future3000 :
future3000 : It's not just high end GPUs. mid range gaming GPUs could now be in arms reach. But no-one has bothered to build a new solver to find this out
the main takeaway here is that "knowingly having outdated public mining software is dangerous and creates a potential unfair advantage, since selfish miners could be running their own private software. Sure, this a risk for any PoW, however, it’s different in this case since we can already make the strong assumption that publicly released mining software can be significantly optimized"
cekickafa : @lolliedieb not interested in ? Was he the dev of gpu miner solver ?
future3000 : He was one of them. https://github.com/Lolliedieb
👍 cekickafa
ardocrat : There is even solver on JS for better understanding :) https://github.com/Metric/cuckoo-cycle/blob/master/lib/miner.js
Fast bandwidth solver is needed I guess for better performance
future3000 :
It's a read only group for transparency, So only CC members and @cekickafa can message.
👍 cekickafa
future3000 :
CC mining update 😭 posted earlier in the TG group*
"Last time the miners were connected was the 27th or 28th of April. They were hosted in a purpose-built facility in the Dominican republic, via a contact of David’s. David managed the miner configs remotely and was the direct contact for the facility. He gave CC members the facility contact details when he left our group chats mid may. Early last month he gave me the config details to access the VPN server that connects to the PC the miners run off, then last week he helped me connect to the VPN and then shared the PC/miner login details with me and Anon.
I’ve been in contact with the owner of the facility where they were hosted. He essentially took them offline, because, the Grin he received in compensation, was less than his power cost. So, they were an expense to his business. He has a large solar setup, which is what they were primarily run off, but it’s also complicated for him since he runs a solar setup that feeds back into the grid or draws off the grid if production is exceeded. So it’s also hard to determine an exact kw rate. He had a bunch of other GPU miners hosted in his facility, but recently they all pulled the plug because GPU mining is dead rn.
Initially he sounded positive and was open to renegotiating a deal to get them back running again. However, after I told him how much gross they’re now roughly making per day, he went cold on the idea and didn’t think they made enough to justify running in his facility.
So now we are left with the question of what to do moving forward: there’s no good option. The best option I can see if we can negotiate a deal with the owner of the facility. Maybe a 50/50, maybe even more for him? We could consider sending them all out them to community members to self-host, but the logistics of that would be cumbersome and the reality is you currently need power rates under 0.14@/kWh just to break even, so many( anyone in the EU) would be running them at a loss. I imagine shipping is not cheap either"
ardocrat : We can not be sure they are not using these ASICs just now
So idea is to return them ASAP :) Dominican Republic is so chilling place.
👍 cekickafa, jdavies
cekickafa : if Grin moves up, those miners cant be reached.
👍 future3000
future3000 :
ardocrat : We can not be sure they are not using these ASICs just now
We can't verify this, but under the circumstances, probably not atm. I'm liaising with someone to switch them back on temporarily so we can atleast confirm all the config details are still in place.
ardocrat : So idea is to return them ASAP
Who to? Open to ideas
ardocrat : To someone trusted I guess, I heard grinsingularity is using solars too :) Free/almost free electricity is always the best I pay ~$0.10/day for 120W G1 mini gives ~$0.30/day
cekickafa : Sometimes 0.27$.. it is so unprofitable.
ardocrat : Better than GPUs :) Profit is just small
future3000 : profits should come back at some point. Mining is circular, historically miners ( even GPU miners) who have been prepared to run at breakeven during a bear market have ended up doing really well.
👍 ardocrat
ardocrat : Ideally 100 G1 minis are needed... before I had 10 GPUs with same profit Mining is dead x10 we can say It always happened, now we saw how Bitmain-powered mining coins were pumped :) And days later they announced support of Filecoin :D And you know price $38k per machine :D Mining is business for corporations..
future3000 : Once upon a time I had 60+ GPUs at my house 😂
🔥 ardocrat, cekickafa
ardocrat : Hot. I sold all at 2019 :)
future3000 : it was ridiculous
ardocrat : Ravencoin is on top of GPU mining, grin is near 50% less profitable And x2 times more power consumption, in case of NV3080, but profit is the same as G1 mini
future3000 : That's also because Grin's solvers are years old
ardocrat : Assembly knowledge is needed and some math :) And some time :D
- Action in electing new CC needs to be taken asap.
Meeting adjourned.